tm9-801.com

It seems that one of the most cited books for 'true CCKW restorers' is the all French/German book simple called 'GMC 352/353' by Emile Becker and Guy Dentzer.

I have seen this book sell for almost $200 on e-bay.

"EMILE BECKER CCKW BOOK

Postby Bxx Dxxxx » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:40 am
This is the RARE soft cover CCKW 1940-1945 "GMC CCKW 352/353" by Emile Becker and Guy Dentzer. This is the Definitive CCKW fact book that all serious CCKW collectors seek. It is only printed in French, German and a bit of English, but CCKW is a universal language and the reader will have no problem.
The book is NOS still in the shrink wrap."

It MUST be so rare that only a gifted few have ever gazed upon its hallowed pages..... I paid $17.67 for my copy.

I don't think its gonna be the earth shaker the 'CCKW experts' make it out to be, but its a welcome addition to the library. I will GLADLY trade for a May 43 copy of TM10-1562 (GMC Truck Parts Manual)

I don't know weather to laugh or laugh harder.

Seems that the the 'Army Motors' (MVPA) articles by Sunderlin (sp) were damn near copied word for word from the 'Becker book' damn near word for word.

The first CCKW article appears in Issue 47, Jan 1995 (http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/Milit ... Index.html)

The 1st edition of the Becker book is 1989.

I literally felt like I was reading the Sunderlin articles... but while holding the Becker Book in my hands. The infamous 'Series 1-6 breakdown in Issue 47 is actually page 9 of the Becker book. Most of the production info is the first 10-15 pages of the becker book.

The data plate info is on pages 16-23.

Table IV CCKW Detail Changes is on page 10. And again in appendix III.

I guess its good that this information is out there... but I find it telling that LITTLE if any credit is given to Becker or Dentzer by Sunderlin. And that is a shame.

Overall the Becker book is a good read. The pictures are xerox quality (splotchy) and the text is French/German. At least 1/3rd of the boot is on trailers and shop bodies. Everything else if regular TM stuff.

I only paid $18 for it so I am not at all unhappy... if you have the Sunderlin articles then you have, in essence the Becker book. I pity the guy who spent $180+ for it a few months ago on e-bay.

Here are some scans from the 'Ultra Rare CCKW Bible'. Its got some decent pics, but 90% are in the TMs and 15% are such poor quality to make them useless.


My $17 prize (Someone paid $180+ for this!?!?!?!)


Look Familiar?


The poor quality of this photo is not from my scanner... its very splotchy and dithered in the book.. Maybe it was scanned and blown up? But this is the general quality of the pictures.

Pfarber wrote: “I don't know weather to laugh or laugh harder. Seems that the the 'Army Motors' (MVPA) articles by Sunderlin (sp) were damn near copied word for word from the 'Becker book' damn near word for word.

The first CCKW article appears in Issue 47, Jan 1995 (http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/Milit ... Index.html)

The 1st edition of the Becker book is 1989.

I literally felt like I was reading the Sunderlin articles... but while holding the Becker Book in my hands.”


These are serious accusations, the MVPA and Bryce committing plagiarism? As an MVPA member for 25 years this concerned me so I clicked on the link you provided and you’re right! Issue 47 is from January 1995, 6 years after Becker’s first addition. There’s only one problem, the link is to MILITARY VEHICLES MAGAZINE.

The first CCKW article appeared in Army Motors issue 47, in January 1989.
Now it is I who doesn’t know “weather to laugh or laugh harder.”

If Sunderlin bothered to cite *any* references there would be no gray area... but the MVPA prints anything that will fill the pages. I refer to the article from tine to time, but my copies are heavily annotated with my notes. So my accusation is the same as anyone doing any research would state: Where did you get this information so it can be reviewed?

If you have a cover to scan in, please do. Is this right?

ARMY MOTORS Magazine - Back Issue - #47 - Winter, 1989

http://www.wwiijeepparts.com/ForSaleSto ... ductId=490

Is winter Jan 1989, or Dec 1989?

This is where I got the 1995 date:
http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/ArmyM ... 1.050.html

#47 - JANUARY 1995:

VC1 Dodge
Unidentified Gas Can
Miracle of America Museum
Military Vehicle Collector's Rally in Sweden
MB/GPW Variations
SCR 694-C Radio - Part II The
Repairs in the Field #11 - Front Tire Wear and Shimmy
9th Italian International Convention - Back to the Past
Non-Standard Army Motorcycles
Repairs in the Field #12 Dodge Oil Leaks in Engine
Repairs in the Field #13 - Half-Track Top Shift Plate
Jimmy's Ancestry - Part I The

I don't subscribe to the MVPA so I had to rely on another source.

The Becker book was first printed in 1989. Since its a foreign book I cannot look up an ISBN number, but on the page 2 it states:

1e edition 1989

I maintain that the Becker would come first, just due to the time required to print and typeset a book.

Lastly, have you READ the Becker book then compared it to the Sunderlin articles? If you haven't then you need to. I don't buy that these two authors magically printed the exact same info by sheer coincidence. If there is a TM or War Dept Circular or other publication that makes this 'Series' categorization please post a scan or reference. They could have, but I'm gonna need some (wait for it) proof that they did.

So I guess we have a chicken and the egg syndrome.... everything in the Becker book shows up in the Sunderlin articles. Most of the info is straight from TMs, but the 'Series' designation is not (that I can find).

So, playing devils advocate, what's MORE plausible:

Sunderlin using the Becker book as an uncredited reference?
Becker reads the MVPA rag, then quick writes a 312 page book, in three languages, based off Sunderlins first two articles?
There is a collaboration between the two?

I quick search attributes at least 3 books to Becker/Dentzer.

Pfarber wrote: “ ARMY MOTORS Magazine - Back Issue - #47 - Winter, 1989 http://www.wwiijeepparts.com/ForSaleSto ... ductId=490
Is winter Jan 1989, or Dec 1989?"

Army Motors issue 47 was the first issue of 1989. I found this on the MVPA website. Being a member for 25 years I also received this copy then and still have it (somewhere).

Also from Pfarber:

"This is where I got the 1995 date:
http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/ArmyM ... 1.050.html"

This link is to Brian’s Military Jeeps where Army Motors issue 47 is dated January 1995.
Three points here:
1- The information in Brian’s site is incorrect, Army Motors issue 47 is not from January 1995.

2- This is not the link referred to in your original post ( http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/Milit ... Index.html ). The link in that post is to Military Vehicles Magazine Index Archive where issue 47 of that magazine is January 1995.

3- Why didn’t you consult MVPA’s website when you made the original post? Going to different site is aking to researching CCKWs at the Ford archives.

One more thing I don’t understand.
In my last post in this thread I copied and pasted the link to Military Vehicles Magazine Archive Index and it appears in the post. However, when this link is clicked on in that post it takes you to Brian’s Military Jeeps.
Could you please explain why this is?

The MVPA does not have an index of issues on the site that came up via google. The 'article archive' lists the CCKW article, and issue, but not a date. If there is a public facing master article list please post a link.

If the index I found is wrong thats why cited my source. There's a reason I do that.. to show not only WHAT I used as a source, but for others to see it. The MVPA could use that highly top secret research tip when they publish anything of 'historical' value.

"3- Why didn’t you consult MVPA’s website when you made the original post? Going to different site is aking to researching CCKWs at the Ford archives."
The MVPAs web site is USELESS. If there is a public facing master index its not coming up when I google it, nor when when I look on the web site. Do you have a link?

So, what is YOUR TAKE on these two publications quoting the exact same text? I offered three probable explanations. I think that Sunderlin more than likely used the Becker book as an uncredited reference. Its not a BAD thing to use others works in research.. you don't have to reinvent the wheel with every article... but the MAIN issue is that the article cites few, if any sources... and that the MVPA seems to not enforce a policy of requiring a bibliography for fact checking. This is basic 8th grade term paper stuff.

I'd like to know your thoughts... do you have any? My mistakes aside, what could be another possible reason for the exact same text?

I figured out how to post URLs without the forum chopping them up

http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/ArmyMotorsMagazineMasterIndex001.050.html

#47 - JANUARY 1995:

VC1 Dodge
Unidentified Gas Can
Miracle of America Museum
Military Vehicle Collector's Rally in Sweden
MB/GPW Variations
SCR 694-C Radio - Part II The
Repairs in the Field #11 - Front Tire Wear and Shimmy
9th Italian International Convention - Back to the Past
Non-Standard Army Motorcycles
Repairs in the Field #12 Dodge Oil Leaks in Engine
Repairs in the Field #13 - Half-Track Top Shift Plate
Jimmy's Ancestry - Part I The


"2- This is not the link referred to in your original post ( http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archives/Milit ... Index.html ). The link in that post is to Military Vehicles Magazine Index Archive where issue 47 of that magazine is January 1995."

There might be some huge copy/paste error on that site, as the date for issue #47 of MilitaryVehcicleMagazine and Army Motors both include the SAME issue date January, 1995. The text above and the link are whats on the site.

You may also order the Army Motors index on a 3.5 floppy disk, which contains articles up to the latest issue

Even if I bought a FLOPPY DISK I have no way to read it.

How hard is it to put an index (ie TEXT) online? Wait, its the MVPA... they are to technology what oil is to water.

I'd also like to add that the Sunderlin articles, like many (MOST?) of the 'Jeep Bibles' (AAW, NabHoltz books, TMs etc) MUST BE SCRUTINIZED, UPDATED AND CORRECTED.

When I first bought my jeep and started restoring it AAW was held up a THE book, as well as the Nabholtz book. Since AAW was much easier to obtain, thats what I used. And guess what, in the 10 or so years since I know of AAW much of the information has be corrected and updated. The fonts are wrong for most jeep contracts, the engine info is bad regarding the bypass filter, and many, many other items... to many to list.

I'm not saying that the Sunderlin articles are not a good start, but they suffer from a few basic issues... firstly (and my personal gripe) is that there are no source documents to refer to. Sure, it obvious that some are from the ORD-9 (the first two articles are basically recaps of the first few pages of the ORD-9 and the Becker book). I guess back in the late 80's the ORD-9s were not really available? I don't know.

But if someone questions a fact presented in *ANY* publication (formal, informal, etc) that is not a reason to 'circle the wagons' and defend the 'old standards'.... if the original fact is correct, then it will withstand scrutiny. If its not, then the world is a better place because the information will be made available in a public forum for all to use.

Pfarber wrote:
"The MVPAs web site is USELESS. If there is a public facing master index its not coming up when I google it, nor when when I look on the web site. Do you have a link?"

When you are in the MVPA web site go to “Supply Room” From the go to “ON Line Store”,
6th line down, middle of the page, Army Motors Issue Back 47. Click on it and when it opens it is described as “Army Motors Issue #1 of 1989.


2 Points from Pfarber:
“I think that Sunderlin more than likely used the Becker book as an uncredited reference.”
“ The 1st edition of the Becker book is 1989.”

The first issue of Army Motors is mailed in January. IF Becker’s book was available January 1, 1989 and IF Army Motors Issue 47 was mailed January 31, 1989 that means Bryce would have had to order and wait for Becker’s book to be delivered, read and translate it to English, send it to the editor, then it would be sent to the printer and printed and finally mailed to the membership....ALL in 31 days! Now that would be some fancy foot work…….but some might argue not impossible.

I decided to do more research and no, I did not go to Military Vehicles Magazine Index Archive, nor did I go to Brian’s Military Jeeps web site. I went to the source. I called Reg Hodgeson. Reg has been the editor of Army Motors for well over 25 years. Reg recalled Bryce handing him the transcript at the convention in July 1988. I don’t think Bryce is so talented that he could read a book 6 months before it was published.

Just to be sure I called Bryce. He not only concurred with Reg he added he had been working on the series for 5 years. Therefore, I can say with 99.9% certainty that Bryce could not have read a book 5 ½ years before it was published.

Pfarber asked: “Lastly, have you READ the Becker book then compared it to the Sunderlin articles?”

I read as much as 3 years of high school German would allow; however Emile did sign one of my two copies for me.
Which did you find easier to read, the French or the German text?

The MVPA's web site is useless. The master index is available on FLOPPY DISK. I did look.. this is what I get when I click on SUPPLY ROOM, ONLINE STORE, here are the first 6 lines:



The 6th row is "TM9-803", "GMC CCKW Walk Around" and "Jeffery the jeep". Where is the Sunderlin article??? I don't see it. Are your menu buttons correct?

The undated complete article I found is under Membership and Publications, Army Motors Magazie, archive link in the middle. Or the direct URL : http://www.mvpa.org/memsec/archive.php

"The first issue of Army Motors is mailed in January. IF Becker’s book was available January 1, 1989 and IF Army Motors Issue 47 was mailed January 31, 1989"

This is complete and utter hogwash. IF, IF, IF, IF. You say you were on the phone with the editor... hey, editor dude, when would the WINTER issue be published? The ADVERTISING LEAD TIME ALONE is 6 months! In 1988-1989 it took a lot longer to press (edit, page set, print, ship) than in 2012. Look in you current issue of AM.. they ask for articles every issue... when is the deadline for article submission? Now look back to an issue in 1989.. is it the same lead time?

Your entire premise fall completely flat because you did not do two things... first, you did not determine when the issue would have been locked down... prepress time is several weeks, then printer lead time and then delivery. Since you were on the phone with the EDITOR who MUST KNOW THESE THINGS to put an issue 'to bed'. Me things Reg would have this info.. time to 'phone a friend'.

As far as Sunderlin working on the article for 5 years... sure, I've been working on my CCKW for 7. Means nothing. And it still does not jive with the fact that you have two publications (The Becker Book and the MVPA article) that state the same info... almost to the same table layout. How hard would it be for the Sunderlin article to cut and paste the series info into his work? Not long. The press times for a magazine are quite fast compared to a book. So I don't think that the Becker book could have read the MVPA rag, saw the Series info, and then yelled 'STOP THE PRESSES!!!" to add what is about a dozen lines of text.



I did a quick google of book publishing and this writer sums up what I already know:

"Many express surprise that it takes a year or longer to get a completed manuscript into print as a finished book. This is a fact of life in publishing. It is frustrating, but there are some good reasons for it.

Part of the lead time is editing, which believe me you would not want to eliminate; and the time lag is actually helpful in that regard. Manuscripts generally improve with age, in the sense that most authors need to get a little distance from their work before they can see some of the problems that need fixing. I often do additional work on a book after my editor has had chance to go over it, and then again (to a lesser degree) when the copy-editor has made nit-picky changes, and one more time when I see it in page proofs after typesetting. Each time it gets a little better -- I hope.

Some of the lead time is necessary for physical production by the publisher -- which can sometimes be rushed for a hot topical book, but overall works better if done in an orderly fashion. This includes such things as book design and typesetting, and commissioning cool cover art. There's also promotional and sales lead time, which is important because publishers need to space their books in a regular schedule, for distribution. And of course, there needs to be advertising and production of bound galleys for reviewers. "

Most google searches are telling me that 2-3 months lead time for a magazine is typical.

I would also like to add this about book publishing vs Magazines...

A books author will either need to finance the en devour personally OR would have to have 'buy in' from a publisher that if THEY front the costs, they will make a return. Since Becker has been either sole or co-author of at least 3 books (although I don't know what order they were published) it would seem that if he was relying on a publisher to cover costs (and Becker would make a royalty off each sale) then I would think that even more time (rewrites, page setups, etc), and the manuscript would have to have been done long before 1989.

As opposed to a non-profits quarterly mag that shoots anything out the door to make deadline.

Here is the sentence that leads the Series table in the Becker book:

"We must accept a very arbitrary subdivision, based primarily over the duration of the various contracts"



Anyone want to guess what Sunderlin says about the Series information???????



DEJA VUE all over again!!!!