MV judging means squat.. I can prove it.

[pfarber]

First, I have NOTHING against this trucks owner. His truck is nice, and I've seen it at a few shows. My complaint is with the far to poor 'standards' with witch CCKWs may be judged with.

Not seeing the judging forms (they are not posted at the event web site) I can only assume that for a 'factory class' standard there is but one check box:

Is the truck green? yes/no

Here is the truck (or a link to the post.. I don't play nice with others and so I look and laugh at the people on this site)

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=163529

Factory class with a second mirror? I can show official documentation AGAINST 2nd mirrors on WWII trucks.
Prestone hood markings were never applied at the factory
There is no decal on the air cleaner.
The regulator data plate (while original, is not 'factory class')
The additional lights?
I don't know the SN of the truck, but the RARE combination of GMC logo and asymmetrical brush guard raises a flag. Definably need some more data to make sure that's 'factory' (could be that it is).

I COMPLETELY agree that it could be 'Best in Show' or 'Judges Choice'. But Factory Class? To me that is a yes/no statement.. not one of points or degrees. It is or it isn't.

[pfarber]

The purpose of FACTORY CLASS is to recreate a vehicle as it rolled of the FACTORY assembly line. Judging standards (although non-existent for CCKWs) are there to ascertain weather or not a vehicle meets the same condition and construction to the level they are written.

Now, would we say that a classic car like a Shelby Cobra, Mustang, Camero, Benz, etc etc etc are restored to factory class if they have, say an aftermarket radio? Or came in a color that was never offered by the factory? No.

Yet when a CCKW is judged to be factory class (by whom and by what standards is also up for debate), then WINS(?) that class (again, another debate) I should be able to open up the relevant TM for that vehicle and see a mirror image of the factory photo. No factory photo will ever show two mirrors. Or turn signals, or an unpainted wooden steering wheel, or a ring mount (ohhh.. thats gonna piss off a lot of people... but its the truth) etc,etc,etc. Yeah, its that simple.

They can be 'Best in show', 'Judges choice', 'People Choice' whatever... but Factory class has meaning, and that meaning is pretty cut and dry. It is or it isn't.

There has to be a gold ring. That gold ring for MV restores is getting that MV back to the day it was made. Its hard to do, very few ever achieve it. Those that do become research tools for the rest of the owners as to what is what. That's the trickle down effect of all that hard work... we all get a little smarter from that effort.

But if any CCKW thats green is getting 'judged' as 'Factory Class' when they are CLEARLY not need to be pointed out, and the system corrected so only the properly restored vehicles are denoted as such rare and exceptional examples.

I'm just pointing out the OBVIOUS .

[JGilmore]

Oh.....man...again..you're making my head spin..

".....First, I have NOTHING against this trucks owner. His truck is nice, and I've seen it at a few shows. My complaint is with the far to poor 'standards' with witch CCKWs may be judged with.
Not seeing the judging forms (they are not posted at the event web site) I can only assume that for a 'factory class' standard there is but one check box:
Is the truck green? yes/no..

Oh....man....you should know what you are talking about before you rant....

Let's see....."...Not seeing the judging forms.." and , since you have not taken the time to actually see the forms...you are commenting on something you know nothing about!

As the person who revamped the MVPA judging and former Judging Chairman I can tell you that you simply don't know what you are talking about! Really, do your homework.

It's not "factory class" ..it's "restored class".


"....Factory class with a second mirror? I can show official documentation AGAINST 2nd mirrors on WWII trucks.
Prestone hood markings were never applied at the factory
There is no decal on the air cleaner.
The regulator data plate (while original, is not 'factory class')
The additional lights?
I don't know the SN of the truck, but the RARE combination of GMC logo and asymmetrical brush guard raises a flag. Definably need some more data to make sure that's 'factory' (could be that it is)...."


Again, you don't know what you are talking about.......ALL these things will lose some points as they are not as delivered BUT....a vehicle MUST score a certain percent of points to win and this truck did. Do you really think that one of the things you pointed out should completely disqualify this truck from winning? The vehicle is judged against a standard and deviations from this will cause it to lose points. All of the things you pointed out will lose points but not enough to cause the overall percentage to be too low to win.

"....I COMPLETELY agree that it could be 'Best in Show' or 'Judges Choice'. But Factory Class? To me that is a yes/no statement.. not one of points or degrees. It is or it isn't...."

Oh..OK..so ONE thing not "as factory" and the vehicle is disqualified???? Wrong valve stem covers...you're out....wrong (modern replacement) glass...you're out, new spark plugs...you're out....non WW II air in the tires...you're out?

That's what you are saying....yes/no...out!

Again..you don't know what you are talking about....especially when it comes to this truck. I do...this truck was imported by my former employer when I worked there. It came in on a open top container and they stacked another one on top crushing the cab. I drained out two gallons of water out of the crankcase, the intermediate axle was seized and the truck was a mess. We deemed it to much work to make money on and sold it as-is to Rob Croche .

Rob did a fantastic job of fixing the crushed cab and restoring the vehicle. He drives it to re-enactments, MV shows and drove it from NE PA to Aberdeen!

Rob wanted a truck that was in excellent condition and presented an "in service" appearance. He has done a great job.

I'm sure Rob would be happy to compare his restoration to any one that you have done.

...and...that mirror on the right side......a sign of a fellow who actually drives his truck!

Jim Gilmore

[pfarber]

You proved my point.

Judging a factory class truck and 'losing points' for stuff that *NEVER CAME ON FACTORY TRUCKS* doesn't LOSE POINTS. It DISQUALIFIES IT AS A FACTORY TRUCK.

If a factory class truck has the wrong engine model.. it doesn't LOSE POINTS it gets dropped to MOTORPOOL and judged from there.

The only time a FACTORY CLASS MV should lose points is be condition, color, model #. Ie Your FACTORY CLASS truck needs the proper AC fuel pump, with the arm, proper pulsator and bale position. If that same pump is painted vs bare metal, they you lose points for improper finish. But if it does not have the proper primer lever, on the proper side, its a MOTOR POOL truck no matter what color the pump is.

MVPA level judging is nothing more than a group reach around to make the owners of poorly restored feel good about paying dues.

If the MVPA has CCKW rules they are not made public. I think I can find jeep judging standards online, but not CCKW. If you have them, post them (or a link) so we can examine how a 1945 CCKW can still be a FACTORY CLASS TRUCK when it has a GMC logo on the grill and other nonsense.

[milspec]

Pfarber wrote:
“The only time a FACTORY CLASS MV should lose points is be condition, color, model #.”

I don’t understand color, are you saying different colors were used by GMC at the factory?

Model #? Do you mean something like a -1 truck with a cargo body? Would that still be considered FACTORY CLASS MV?

[pfarber]

For a factory class, you *MUST* have the proper assembly's installed for the model and year. For example, if you had Jan 45 truck, you MUST have the cast iron carb.

If that carb was not black (I believe this is the proper color... not sure, don't own a cast iron carb) THEN you lose points for IMPROPER FINISH.
If you have a W-1 cast iron carb, that is black, then you AUTOMAGICALLY drop to MOTORPOOL as the W-1 never came on a factory truck.
If you have the cast iron carb, but instead of black, its bare metal (proper part, but wrong finish) then you are STILL in the factory class, but lose a SIGNIFICANT amount of points for improper finish.

Even the jeep standards use this rule. Failure to have the proper part automatically FAILS the inspection.

The CLASS of truck is non-negotiable. Its either a factory restoration or not.

The CONDITION of the truck (proper parts with the proper color, markings, assembly etc) is what is being judged.

[milspec]

Thanks for clearing up the color. I thought you were referring to different exterior colors.
I would still like to know what model # is referring to.
Also should a factory restoration represent the point when it rolled of the assembly line or when it was accepted by the government inspector?

[pfarber]

Yes, a factory class restoration (for automotive judging) has always meant 'as off the factory floor'. The only leeway is that some vehicles would roll off the line, then go STRAIGHT to another shop for installation of additional parts.. but was never sold (ie title changed hands to a consumer).

One such mod for older cars would be convertibles. Many cars were never available as a convertible, but could be purchased and then the factory turns it over to another shop that does the top. Or air conditioning, etc etc. They are not factory accessories, but are also not true 'after market' (ie installed by the owner after purchase).

SO if you have a GMC CCKW with a SN/DoD of X, say a 1942 model... the presence of a rotary light switch fails you. Having the proper push/pull switch, but its chromed, not OD, would not fail you (well, in some circles it would) but you would AT LEAST lose points for proper finish. Now, if the switch was NEVER available in chrome, insta-fail, as it was never a factory option.

[milspec]

What about registration numbers? Would that be an “inst-fail” or would it simply loose points?

[pfarber]

Well, as long as they are the proper font, color, height, location and have the proper prefix and suffix at best you can hope for is close.

A post feb 45 truck would be white (as per the AR850-15) but before that they are blue. I would not take points off for over spray, straightness or runs... as a field ord. co would assemble them and spray on the reg number (in white! one of the blue drab exceptions). I WOULD fail a cargo truck if it started with anything but a '4' there.... there is a list of registration number prefixes... Ill post them and see if anyone has anything to add.

I'm sure there is a great big list of registration numbers by month somewhere, but I guess the judge would have to use his well, judgement.

If there is a data plate showing a registration number then they would have to match.

But the owner could always challenge the judge to prove the number is wrong.

[JGilmore]

Paul wrote;

"...... a factory class truck ..........CAME ON FACTORY TRUCKS..............AS A FACTORY TRUCK..........If a factory class truck............... a FACTORY CLASS MV ..................Your FACTORY CLASS truck ................."


Now your title of this thread is MVPA judging ... so I assume you are talking about MVPA judging.

Let me quote myself again....." As the person who revamped the MVPA judging and former Judging Chairman .......It's not "factory class" ..it's "restored class".

There is no "Factory class".


"....MVPA level judging is nothing more than a group reach around to make the owners of poorly restored feel good about paying dues...."

This is easy to say but lets see your proof. "poorly restored?" You will show us some examples right? You're not just making this up right? You must have the judging sheets to say such a thing. How about the two Ford GPA's at the last Convention? Poorly restored ????


"......If the MVPA has CCKW rules they are not made public....."

There are no vehicle specific "rules". There are general judging standards and they apply to all vehicles.


".....I think I can find jeep judging standards online, but not CCKW. ..."

Not jeep. Only the GPW has a judging "guide". Take a look at it and see how many times my name is mentioned as a source for data.



".....If you have them, post them (or a link) so we can examine how a 1945 CCKW can still be a FACTORY CLASS TRUCK when it has a GMC logo on the grill and other nonsense...."


Again...NO factory class. Here's an idea...why don't you compile a CCKW judging guide? Why wait for someone else to do it (like me) ....only thing.....be sure you are correct....not like the carb/sight plug thing.....


"....Even the jeep standards use this rule. Failure to have the proper part automatically FAILS the inspection. ...."


This is absolutely false. Please , read up before you make statements like this. Vehicles are judged on originality and condition.
Having one wrong part does not disqualify you from restored class, it loses you points. In fact, let me know what car club or organization does this. One part not correct....vehicle is disqualified . Even the Ford Mercury V-8 club does not do this.


".....SO if you have a GMC CCKW with a SN/DoD of X, say a 1942 model... the presence of a rotary light switch fails you. Having the proper push/pull switch, but its chromed, not OD, would not fail you (well, in some circles it would) but you would AT LEAST lose points for proper finish. Now, if the switch was NEVER available in chrome, insta-fail, as it was never a factory option...."

Are you saying that CCKW's came with a chrome push pill light switch?


Now.....I will say that when I took over Judging Chairman 7 or 8 years ago the judging was a mess. I took nearly a year to revise the standards and procedures. I went all over the country and talked to hundreds of people about judging and what they thought judging should be. In the end I revised the standards so that they would reward excellence in MV restoration. You had to get a certain percent of the total points possible to win First, Second or Third place. In fact, you could be the only vehicle in your class and only get enough points to get a third place win with no second or first place. Vehicles were judged on a standard and not against each other.

Now I have talked to hundreds of people and heard their ideas but I have never heard of judging like you are proposing!

This idea of "judging"...."in or out" fascinates me. I would like to learn more of your ideas about this.

I will ask you some questions and to keep this on the topic please, if possible, answer them by numbers to avoid confusion.

# 1) a vehicle is either 100 percent correct or it is thrown out of your "Factory Class"?

# 2) one wrong part and it's out ?

# 3) A CCKW 99.999 percent correct/perfect that does not have a primer arm on the fuel pump is out ?

# 4) The same CCKW that is 99.999 percent correct that is in judging with a correct but thrashed CCKW that has barely any paint, rust, dents, wrong color for the motor, fuel pump, carb, bald tires, cracked wood would be out but the thrashed one would stay in?

# 5) How will you judge tires? The only tires that are like the tires that the CCKW's came with that I know of today are reproductions made by Speciality Tire or Denman. Nether of these made tires during WW II and they have DOT info on them....OUT ??? How will anyone get into your Factory Class without real WW II made tires? You won't make an exception for those will you ?

# 6) You wrote " a factory class restoration (for automotive judging) has always meant 'as off the factory floor'. The only leeway is that some vehicles would roll off the line, then go STRAIGHT to another shop for installation of additional parts.. but was never sold (ie title changed hands to a consumer)...."

OK...off the factory floor would mean no registration numbers, mismatching paint on external parts, nuts and bolts unpainted on the outside, no data plate stamped with USA numbers or DOD, and no final coat of OD paint. Any vehicle with any of these would be OUT ?

# 7) If one incorrect or missing thing = OUT , then a vehicle in your Factory Class would be OUT if it did not have the inspectors stickers on the windshield, or OUT if it did not have the warning and warranty stickers in the windshield as well. This is correct right? You said one wrong thing and OUT ?

# If color on the motor, fuel pump and carb do not disqualify you because they are wrong what about the outside of the vehicle? If the vehicle body is original but painted baby blue will it = loss of points or OUT ?

I can think of many more questions but I don't want to overload you on this. I really do want to know how your Factory Class judging would handle these scenarios.

Jim Gilmore

[JGilmore]

But hold on here, you stated "off the factory floor" They did not have Registration numbers when they rolled off the factory floor. These were added after the vehicle was test driven, washed, inspected and painted the final coat of OD paint.

Read the AR850... you seem to have a copy... so now manufacturer != factory? This is the AR850-5 1942

".....A post feb 45 truck would be white (as per the AR850-15)..."

This is not correct for a "factory" truck. White registration numbers were not authorized until AR 850-5 , Change # 2 - 24 September 1945 .

REALLY? Why don't you read the 15 Feb version and tell me what it says... other than the registration numbers are supposed to be WHITE? Or don't you have that one? If you don't, let me know.. I might have a copy for you.


In fact , since the contracts were already being cancelled by then the change to white numbers at the FACTORY was not done and blue drab numbers were used on to the end of production.

Remember, you are talking about factory and not what was done out in the field. Please feel free to show me any factory photos that you may have that show white numbers applied at the factory. Just because the AR said this or that does not mean that it was done on the production line.

YES IT DOES.

Postby Bob N » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:45 am
...

Officially the blue drab was not replaced until 15 Feb 45 with a mandantory date of 15 Aug 45. This was according to AR 850-5, 15 Feb 45.

...

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35834

This was in 2004! So you seem to be off a few months AUG < SEPT.



http://youtu.be/hhf4ynHqVqA

Skip to 8:40 for proof.... oh noes! A factory SUP/TUP with no reg numbers!!!!! Painted WHITE! OH NOES!!! Please don't try and explain this away.. this is actual wartime footage of a truck RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!

"....but before that they are blue. I would not take points off for over spray, straightness or runs...:"

Numbers applied at the factory in Blue Drab were applied using a stick on stencil . I have yet to see any of the things you say on a factory photo.

Photo? Reference? Anything other than killing electrons?

"....as a field ord. co would assemble them and spray on the reg number (in white! one of the blue drab exceptions). .."

Hold on here..that's motor pool not factory. You said " rolled off the factory floor" . Now you are changing this?

Well, a SUP/TUP packaged CCKW would NOT have a registration number applied AT THE FACTORY. Would it?

What if when they assembled that truck and found it had a bad fuel pump...and used on off a jeep by removing the arm....still in or OUT?

You are DANGEROUSLY close to Joel Gopan territory. I'm gonna need to see some picture ID.


You can't have it both ways...either it's factory floor or not....your words not mine.

When I become the writer or the standards I will lay it all out.

[pfarber]

I think on the G I tried to start a judging thread.. way, way back.

CCKWs would be one of the harder classes to judge. When do you fault a 42 or 43 truck for not having the fuel bowl sight plug?

[pfarber]

Restored class?

What a cop out. I give a truck a krylon 'restoration' and the MVPA hands out awards like its the special Olympics... everyone wins! But the fact is that we all lose... with CCKW salads that never rolled of the factory line.

If you were the one that came up with restored class then you are more of the problem then you think.

There are more holes in a 'restored class' then there are in a factory level class.

This explains a lot of the 'sensitivity' you have towards this topic. You are trying to JUSTIFY your work rather than put the best restoration guidelines available for CCKWs.


# 1) a vehicle is either 100 percent correct or it is thrown out of your "Factory Class"?
YES, deduction can be made for improper finish, but all the parts must be as a truck rolled off the line. Its not that hard of a concept.


# 2) one wrong part and it's out ?
YES, the factory floor didn't have the 'wrong parts' now did they? They constructed every truck as per the contract specified. Its not that hard a concept.

# 3) A CCKW 99.999 percent correct/perfect that does not have a primer arm on the fuel pump is out ?
YES, unless you can document that a specific truck (and the truck being judged MUST be withing that squence) had no primer arms, then, as per the contract, it must have the arm. Its not that hard a concept.

# 4) The same CCKW that is 99.999 percent correct that is in judging with a correct but thrashed CCKW that has barely any paint, rust, dents, wrong color for the motor, fuel pump, carb, bald tires, cracked wood would be out but the thrashed one would stay in?
Points would be lost of condition and finish, but a rusty all steel bed it acceptable. An M35 bed, in perfect condition, is not. So yes, an all original, unrestored faded truck with bald tires *could* score higher than a restored truck that has the improper parts (say a cast iron carb for an early truck). If sounds backwards but the intent is get the truck AS CLOSE TO FACTORY PRODUCTION AS POSSIBLE. So a faded original unrestored truck is closer to that standard than a CCKW salad with a fresh coat of paint. Its not that hard a concept.

# 5) How will you judge tires? The only tires that are like the tires that the CCKW's came with that I know of today are reproductions made by Speciality Tire or Denman. Nether of these made tires during WW II and they have DOT info on them....OUT ??? How will anyone get into your Factory Class without real WW II made tires? You won't make an exception for those will you ?
Ok Joel, its NOT THAT HARD. There are antique cars out there with ORIGINAL FACTORY TIRES. You would lose points for modern tires. The fact that there are no off the shelf original tires for purchase doesn't mean that you lower the STANDARD. I'm sure there are some original NDTs out there. Jeep guys seem to find them. Remember the GOAL: off the factory line. Its not that hard a concept. Not many people may every achieve it, or it may be insanely expensive... but so is climbing Mt. Everest. If every lard ass with a credit card did it then it would mean NOTHING.

# 6) You wrote " a factory class restoration (for automotive judging) has always meant 'as off the factory floor'. The only leeway is that some vehicles would roll off the line, then go STRAIGHT to another shop for installation of additional parts.. but was never sold (ie title changed hands to a consumer)...."

OK...off the factory floor would mean no registration numbers, mismatching paint on external parts, nuts and bolts unpainted on the outside, no data plate stamped with USA numbers or DOD, and no final coat of OD paint. Any vehicle with any of these would be OUT ?

You need to prove this. AR850 clearly states that the MANUFACTURER WILL APPLY ORIGINAL MARKINGS. Overcome that hurdle and then we can talk.

# 7) If one incorrect or missing thing = OUT , then a vehicle in your Factory Class would be OUT if it did not have the inspectors stickers on the windshield, or OUT if it did not have the warning and warranty stickers in the windshield as well. This is correct right? You said one wrong thing and OUT ?
CORRECT. What part of OFF THE FACTORY FLOOR ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING? This is the GOLD, nay, PLATINUM STANDARD. If it was easy then it would not be an issue. But it will be a standard to ACHIEVE, not a 'participation event' where green and 11 or 12 tires gets you first place.

I never said it would be easy.

I never said it would be POSSIBLE.

I only say that it is a STANDARD in which to measure against.

This truck may never exist, and RIGHT NOW it seems an impossible task because the information is not available in book to purchase. If it was we'd already be doing it. But the goal of a FACTORY CLASS RESTORATION is not to give participation points... but to set a standard to judge the few, rare people and vehicles that would take the time and effort to achieve this level. Its not that hard a concept.

[milspec]

Pfarber wrote: “ You need to prove this. AR850 clearly states that the MANUFACTURER WILL APPLY ORIGINAL MARKINGS. Overcome that hurdle and then we can talk.”
Am I incorrect or weren’t the registration numbers applied after the vehicle was accepted by the government? And if so wouldn’t this have been after the road test? If this is true then judging vehicles “as off the factory floor” would mean no registration numbers.

Also, it appears like Jim Gilmores post was edited by inserting comments, questions and answers. This discredits the entire forum. The moderator is abusing his authority and leads one to question any post except one’s own. How can we trust that the moderator is not changing numbers and dates to win an argument?
Not cool!